To: Barry Setterfield and Grants Pass Pastors Group:

Andy Woods noted recently that there is probably a gap between the rapture of the church and the start of the 70 weeks of Daniel. Recent commentators have shrunk this delay to near zero though they may show a small gap after the rapture. Andy noted that E. W. Bullinger and Clarence Larkin, for example, thought this gap would be 25 to 50 years. 

The reason for the big gap is that the identity of the Antichrist is unknown until the rapture. At that time the Antichrist will have to scramble to put a big governing body organization in place that will constitute One World Government under his headship as the counterfeit savior of mankind. He will then deal with all false religion and after that with world banking commerce and trade. (Revelation 17, 18).

The AC seems to originate in Europe leading a final Revived Roman Empire. “The Ten Nations” will expand soon beyond the boundaries of Europe and the Old Roman Empire. 

(Chuck Missler quipped that the devil had to scramble in every generation by having to have a suitable candidate Antichrist waiting in the wings should the rapture occur today. There have therefore been many stand-by candidates waiting in the wings the last 50 generations, according to Chuck). 

There are two bad guys here: the Beast and the False Prophet. The Beast is at first headquartered in Berlin or in Rome (?) and the False Prophet in Jerusalem.

 The latter man will suit the Jews nicely:

“You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.  “I do not receive honor from men. “But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you.

“I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.“ (John 5:39-43)

Later the AC moves his world headquarters to the rebuilt city of Babylon, Iraq, uniting the disparate cultures of East and West. He can better rule the whole earth from a non-European city.
The stage will then be set for World War 3 focused on the Middle East and on Jerusalem. 

Andy also notes that the scope of Ezekiel 38-39 extends all the way from the Rapture to the Second Advent. The scope of these two chapters is therefore at least seven years, possibly longer if we add into the Bullinger-Larkin Gap of 25 to 50 years. 

The Gog-Magog invasion is apparently all set up now so it could happen just after the Rapture. The defeat and decimation of the invaders by the Lord Himself (with no harm coming to Israel), will force the surviving gentile nations to regroup in order to solve “The Jewish Problem” once and for all. One result will be a seven year peace treaty protecting Israel for seven years, orchestrated by one of the stronger powers of the West. Camp David Accord revisited? (Many note that the U.S. does not appear to be a major player in end-time events.)

The peace treaty will fail 3.5 years in and the fake messiah (the False Prophet) will desecrate the recently dedicated Third Temple in Jerusalem ushering in the “Time of Jacob’s Trouble” and “The Great and Terrible Day of the Lord.” 

There is a final Assyrian on stage as well. Egypt, “The King of the South” is also a major player in the close of the and the Second Coming of Jesus (with Bride) to Jerusalem. 
World War Three will decimate the armies of the gentiles and two thirds of the world’s 15 million Jews will be killed (though one third will know their messiah, Jesus. I doubt a third of the gentiles will be saved?)

What do you think? 

Lambert

From Barry Setterfield, January 23, 2022.

Hi Lambert! Many thanks for the input and possibilities. There are divergent views in the group, and some of the items you raised were discussed. 

It seems that your scenario all stems from the premise that there is a time-gap between the Rapture and the signing of the Covenant and hence the beginning of the Tribulation. If there is essentially no time-gap, then the proposition fails.

We are aware that the timing of the Rapture itself is problematic. One pastor here is pre-Millennial, Post-Trib rapture, but we are all watching the sequence of events unfold. Those of us with a Pre-Trib rapture approach feel that there is very little if any time between that and the Covenant signing and the beginning of the Tribulation. Jesus comments in Luke 17:26-30 are considered diagnostic here. Jesus pointed out that the day Noah entered the Ark  the judgment started. He pointed out that the day that Lot went out of Sodom, the judgment fell. The Lord then said that it would be the same with His coming and the Tribulation.

You seem to think that so much will have to be done after we have gone before everything will be ready for the antichrist to show himself. Most of us here do not seem to think so. We would point out that events will be happening which pave the way for a rapid transition to the Tribulation and Antichrist’s way of doing things. It is like a house being constructed prior to the owner coming to occupy it. One he is given the key, he walks in the door, flicks the switch and all the lights come on and the faucet delivers water when turned. We see it as being the same with Antichrist – everything is being set up right now for his appearance the moment we are out of the way. It is for that reason that Jesus said “When you see all these things BEGIN to come to pass, lift up your heads for your deliverance draws near.” (Luke 21:28).

This view therefore entails seeing events on a shortened timescale. It means (1) the Covenant is nearly ready. In Daniel 9:27 the words “confirm the covenant” mean in Hebrew to make something that already exists, bigger, grander, more acceptable. We point out that the Abraham Accords of 2020; the Saudi led Arab Peace Plan reiterated in 2017; and the UN Two-State Solution affirmed as their position in 2013 – all these have features which are currently acceptable. A mix of the best from all three proposals plus a carrot of building the Temple for the Jews on the Temple mount, would get it signed fairly quickly, particularly if the Lord had just wiped out the Russian and Iranian armies on the hills of Israel so all the world knew that God would fight for Israel. 

It means (2) that the power vacuum from the Ezekiel 38 wipe-out of Russia and Iran changes the dynamic in the Mid-east and Europe. Note that Turkey does not come with Russia and Iran. Rather it stands aside according to Ezekiel 38:13 in the LXX as the merchants of Chalcedon (NOT Tarshish but present-day Istanbul – the ancient trading center on the eastern end of the Mediterranean) stand and question what Russia and Iranthink they are doing. So their wipe-out leaves Turkey as the major player in the area, with a million militia to control events. With these developments, Turkey becomes the main player in the game. Istanbul is at one end of the Belt and Road scheme for world trade. Istanbul was the old trading center for the eastern Mediterranean, and it is built on 7 hills just like Rome. Babylon is being turned into a historical museum, but is was never on 7 hills and so it cannot be Babylon the great. I believe that Chuck made a mistake there with ongoing consequences. So if Istanbul is already set to become the trading center to receive and disburse goods from the east, it does not have to be rebuilt. It is already ready

It means (3) that the 10 nation confederation is already basically in place. This is what we have in the Mediterranean Union which has Turkey as its backbone. It was formed 13th July 2008 and ratified on 3rd March 2010. Then a couple of years later, the Arab Spring plucked up 3 of the first signatories by the roots, namely Tunisia, Libya and Egypt. The uprisings were fomented by the Muslim Brotherhood who are and arm of the present party in power in Turkey. Turkey was trying to do the same thing to Syria when Assad asked Russia and Iran to come and help. So already there is a 10-natin confederacy in the eastern Mediterranean that has had 3 members plucked up by the roots. Interestingly, of those 10, five were part of the Eastern Roman Empire and 5 from the West. Thus, everything important is now in place.

Must close for now, but that gives you an idea of how some of us are thinking. Blessings and prayers, Barry.

The book of Daniel is key to understanding the 20% of the Bible informing us on things to come in history. In Daniel 2 the great statue indicated successive world powers from that day to the Second Advent: Babylon, Medes and Persians, Greece, Rome (to AD 1917), Rome revived, (2020-2017?). From Daniel 2:

"...Therefore Daniel went to Arioch, whom the king had appointed to destroy the wise men of Babylon. He went and said thus to him: “Do not destroy the wise men of Babylon; take me before the king, and I will tell the king the interpretation.”

Then Arioch quickly brought Daniel before the king, and said thus to him, “I have found a man of the captives of Judah, who will make known to the king the interpretation.”

The king answered and said to Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, “Are you able to make known to me the dream which I have seen, and its interpretation?”Daniel answered in the presence of the king, and said, “The secret which the king has demanded, the wise men, the astrologers, the magicians, and the soothsayers cannot declare to the king. But there is a God in heaven who reveals secrets, and He has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will be in the latter days. Your dream, and the visions of your head upon your bed, were these: As for you, O king, thoughts came to your mind while on your bed, about what would come to pass after this; and He who reveals secrets has made known to you what will be. But as for me, this secret has not been revealed to me because I have more wisdom than anyone living, but for our sakes who make known the interpretation to the king, and that you may know the thoughts of your heart. “You, O king, were watching; and behold, a great image! This great image, whose splendor was excellent, stood before you; and its form was awesome. This image’s head was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

“This is the dream. Now we will tell the interpretation of it before the king. You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory; and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all—you are this head of gold. But after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours; then another, a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth. And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others. Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay. And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile. As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay. And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold—the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure.”

Then King Nebuchadnezzar fell on his face, prostrate before Daniel, and commanded that they should present an offering and incense to him. The king answered Daniel, and said, “Truly your God is the God of gods, the Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, since you could reveal this secret.” Then the king promoted Daniel and gave him many great gifts; and he made him ruler over the whole province of Babylon, and chief administrator over all the wise men of Babylon. Also Daniel petitioned the king, and he set Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego over the affairs of the province of Babylon; but Daniel sat in the gate of the king. (Daniel 2:14-49)

In 1969 Ray Stedman suggested that the four beasts in Daniel 7 might be four world powers all on stage at the same time, at the end of our age. The insights Ray had 50 years ago can easily be updated to today’s stage set assuming the curtain is ready to be raised for last act and the glorious Second Advent of our Lord Jesus Christ, seven years later. Four entities appearing at the same time constitute a quaternity, such as four points on the compass: N S E W. But Chapter 2 is surely about four empires appearing on history's stage sequentially. Virtually all commentators except for Ray Stedman interpret the four beasts of Chapter 2 as sequential entities in history. Ray was thoughtful and careful so his view is presented here to elicit discussion.

Daniel Chapter 7

This revelation came to Daniel in the first year of Belshazzar's reign as co-regent of Babylon with his father, Nabonidus, namely, in 553 B.C. It was fitting that this vision of the downfall of world empires should come to the prophet during the reign of the last king of Babylon. God gave it to him 50 years after the similar revelation of the great image in chapter 2.

In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, (547 BC)  Daniel had a dream and visions of his head while on his bed. Then he wrote down the dream, telling the main facts.

Daniel spoke, saying, “I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the Great Sea. And four great beasts came up from the sea, each different from the other. The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings. I watched till its wings were plucked off; and it was lifted up from the earth and made to stand on two feet like a man, and a man’s heart was given to it.“And suddenly another beast, a second, like a bear. It was raised up on one side, and had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. And they said thus to it: ‘Arise, devour much flesh!’
“After this I looked, and there was another, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird. The beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it. “After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words.

“Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet; and the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke pompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows.
“I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.
“Thus he said:

‘The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.

Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.
‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’

“This is the end of the account. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts greatly troubled me, and my countenance changed; but I kept the matter in my heart...” (Daniel 7)

Commentary by Ray Stedman.

Ray Stedman's Conjecture:

Reading all of Daniel Chapter 7, the emphasis is on the fourth beast, the other three having dropped out. There are good reasons why the traditional interpretation of the four world empires here in Chapter seven are sequential. Ray Stedman simply did not have time to revisit this topic since he only lived until 1992. Yet there will be great world powers on stage at the end of the age we live in now. History is very dynamic and God is in full control of everything that happens. The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings. I watched till its wings were plucked off; and it was lifted up from the earth and made to stand on two feet like a man, and a man’s heart was given to it.

In Isaiah the last invader of Israel from the North is called “the Assyrian” suggesting he is from Persia (today’s Iran) not from Babylon (today’s Iraq).
Persia under Cyrus the Great succeeded Babylon under Belshazzar in BC.

Russia ??

“And suddenly another beast, a second, like a bear. It was raised up on one side, and had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. And they said thus to it: ‘Arise, devour much flesh!’"

Turkey ? 

“After this I looked, and there was another, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird. The beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it."

“After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words.

Commentary by Ray Stedman on Daniel 11.

ALTERNATE PROPHETIC SCENARIO
by Barry Setterfield

Thanks for your encouraging note; it is appreciated. You mention that you always had difficulty in fitting Turkey into the prophetic scene, and sought my comments. In summary, there are two ways of looking at this, as follows.

First, many prophecy presenters give a “traditional” scenario something like this: Ezekiel 38 suggests that Turkey as well as Russia and Iran come against Israel and are miraculously wiped out by God.  This gets rid of the roots of both Shiite Islam (Iran) and Sunni Islam (Turkey) and the Russian threat. This means that the Mid East is cleared of Islamic controversy and its wars and Russian influence around the world. This then leaves Europe as the main player to control world affairs and so Antichrist must come from there. 

Feeding into this scenario were the plans of the Globalists to set up World Government based in Europe and a ruler coming from there. Details were (and are) available from associated Globalist and occult organizations from the 1980’s outlining some details. Everything was on track until Trump was elected in the USA and Netanyahu re-elected in Israel. The subsequent policies by Trump and Netanyahu brought a halt to the globalization plan. The reasoning now is that we will have to wait until Trump and Netanyahu are out of office so that their “nationalist damage” can be put into reverse and the original scenario picked up once again. For that reason, the Globalists have been intent on impeaching Trump and indicting Netanyahu to get them out of office as quickly as possible. 

That traditional view seemed a reasonable proposition, and Biblical enough, and I supported it until the late 1980’s. Then, in the early 1990’s I was moved to look again more closely at the prophecies of Daniel and historical data, and was struck by what seemed a different scenario.

Second. The rise and fall of four successive world empires is traced in Daniel 2, 7, 8 and 11 and their territorial extent is shown in Map 1. There we find the Babylonian Empire started with Nebuchadnezzar in 606 BC. That Empire fell to the Medo-Persians, which in turn fell to the Empire of Alexander the Great. When Alexander died in June of 323 BC, his kingdom was divided up among his 4 generals. When the infighting had ceased, General Seleucus controlled the northern sector of Iraq, Syria and Turkey, and General Ptolemy ruled over the southern sector of Egypt and North Africa (see Map 2a).  This made Israel a buffer state between the Kings of the Northern and Southern sectors. Israel was alternately controlled by one then the other. Later came the Empire of Rome which overran this divided Greek kingdom. 

Note first that these empires all had one section of land that was common to each -- the Eastern Mediterranean from Turkey around to Egypt and North Africa. This was true of the eastern sector of the Roman Empire based in Constantinople.  Second, Israel was part of each one of those Empires. 
The last Empire was to be a 10 nation confederacy. Since Revelation states that it arises out of the Mediterranean, it might be expected that it will also involve the Eastern Mediterranean lands and Israel just as all the other empires had done.  In 2008, a 10 Nation Mediterranean Union was formed.  It was ratified in 2010 by nations in the Eastern and Southern Mediterranean. Turkey is its backbone and Israel is one of its members (See Map 3). Five members come from the Eastern Roman Empire and 5 from the West. About these 10 nations, Daniel 2:43 can legitimately read, “As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they are Arabs from the seed of men, but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay.” If this translation is taken at face value, the Beast Kingdom cannot be a European entity as the traditionalists assert, but rather a different Mediterranean entity from the Arab world, with Turkey as its main player. 

Chapters 8 and 11 of Daniel give additional details. There we find that the one who sets up the Abomination of Desolation in the Temple in Jerusalem is the “King of the North.”  This was the Seleucid Empire, the king of the North from the break-up of Alexander’s Empire. This is apparent from both chapters 8 and 11 in Daniel. It is important to note that it is often proposed by the traditionalists that the Abomination of Desolation being spoken of in Daniel 8:11-14 and 11:31 by the King of the North, was the action of Antiochus IV Epiphanes around 165 BC. However, Jesus countered that incorrect application of the prophetic word by stating that Daniel’s event was yet future (Matthew 24:15). 

So, as the passage is looked at with this detail in mind, we gather that Daniel 11:21 marks the rise of Antichrist (not verse 36 as the traditional presentation gives). Further, it means that the middle of the Tribulation is verse 31, and the run-up to the battle of Armageddon is 11:40-45. These verses give us a complete overview of the whole Tribulation period. In this case, Antichrist as King of the North must come from the Seleucid Empire, that is the area of Turkey, Iraq or Syria. Both Syria and Iraq are not strong enough militarily to achieve what these verses indicate, but Turkey is. She is the second strongest power in NATO next to the USA. Without the USA, Turkey’s forces are stronger than all the rest of NATO put together. So militarily it is possible. 

In addition, Ezekiel 38 tells of the coming invasion of Israel by Russia and Iran (Persia).  Ezekiel 38:13 in the Masoretic text from 100 AD says that the “merchants of Tarshish and the young lions thereof” speak out against the invasion. This leaves open both the traditional possibility and the alternate one we are considering here. But, the oldest version of Scripture we have, the Alexandrian LXX translated from the original Paleo-Hebrew about 280 BC, says it is “the merchants of Chalcedon and their villages” that are the ones who speak out against the Russian and Iranian invasion of Israel. Chalcedon is the ancient name of the main city in Turkey, Istanbul. This translation only supports the alternate view being discussed here and closes off the traditional possibility. Further, in the traditional view, it is sometimes thought that the “house of Togarmah” is Turkey. However, investigation indicates it is actually the Turkoman republics, the “Stans” generally. So from the LXX it is entirely possible that Turkey is not involved with Russia and Iran, but stands against them. The events of this last week tend to support the LXX text rather than the Masoretic about the Turks opposing the Russians.  So if Turkey is against Russia, she will not come with Russia against Israel, and so Turkey is not destroyed in the ensuing battle. That leaves Turkey in an interesting position and an entirely different scenario opens up, supporting the alternate view as presented by Daniel 8 and 11.

In this alternate case, Russia and Iran are destroyed, but Turkey is left as the main player in the Mid-East. Her armies can control the whole region as Daniel 11 indicates. In addition, Sunni Islam becomes the key religion, which may be why dissenters are beheaded as a means of killing in Revelation. Also, in Revelation, Babylon the Great which sits on many waters is a world trading center. The new Chinese Belt and Road scheme which is a revamping of the old Silk Route, ends in Istanbul, according to a map issued by the Chinese Government (see Map 4).  Istanbul is built on 7 hills, just like Rome. (Map 5). It is also in control of “many waters” (Map 2b - which Rome is not) , as the Black Sea, the Bosphorus, the Sea of Marmara, the Aegean and Mediterranean are all under its direct influence. As Revelation 18:17 indicates, ships could stand off and watch Istanbul burning in a way they cannot hope to do for Rome or Babylon, both of which are inland. 

What is often not considered, or perhaps ignored, is that the Babylonian priests and religion were expelled by Xerxes not only from Babylon, but from the entire Empire.  The priests then settled in Pergamos, Turkey. This resulted in Revelation 2:13 where Christ called that city Satan’s Seat. It is thus likely that Babylon the Great is in Turkey. Since Europe is weak and ineffective, Turkey can control events there, including the huge migration of Islamics which again is starting. Turkey would be in a key position to make a covenant with Israel after Russia, Iran and the USA are rendered ineffective. 

It is sometimes presented that Daniel 9:26 implies antichrist will be of Roman origin. This view originated with the Reformers who saw the Pope as the Antichrist. Its proponents today say it was the Romans who “destroyed the city and the sanctuary” in 70 AD, so antichrist will be a European. While it is true that the overall commander of the legions was a Roman Titus, the passage actually states that it is the people of the antichrist who will destroy the Temple. Those people who comprised his legions came from Iraq, Syria, Turkey and Bulgaria. These were not ethnic Romans, but probably indicate that antichrist will come from the region of Turkey or nearby. I could go on, but this should give you something to consider.  

If you have more questions, let me know.

Blessings,
Barry

Map 1: The Four Gentile World Empires of Daniel 2 & 7

Map 2a: After the death of Alexander the Great, General Seleucus took control of the Northern sector of his Empire and General Ptolemy the South. The Seleucid and Ptolemaic Empires resulted as shown here. Two other generals took Parthia & Greece. Map 2b: Part of Turkey, showing Istanbul and Chalcedon as the same city (on either sides of the Bosphorus). This city controls all sea lanes from Black Sea to the Mediterranean.

Map 3 The Mediterranean Union

Map 4: The Chinese Belt and Road Scheme for World Trade

Map 5: The 7 Hills of Istanbul

“I watched till thrones were put in place, And the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment was white as snow, And the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, Its wheels a burning fire; A fiery stream issued And came forth from before Him. A thousand thousands ministered to Him; Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The court was seated, And the books were opened. “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time. “I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed.

“I, Daniel, was grieved in my spirit within my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. I came near to one of those who stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. 

So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things: ‘Those great beasts, which are four, are four kings which arise out of the earth. 
But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever.’

“Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet; and the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke pompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows.

“I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

“Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast shall be A fourth kingdom on earth, Which shall be different from all other kingdoms, And shall devour the whole earth, Trample it and break it in pieces.

The ten horns are ten kings Who shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them; He shall be different from the first ones, And shall subdue three kings. He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time.

‘But the court shall be seated, And they shall take away his dominion, To consume and destroy it forever. Then the kingdom and dominion, And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’

“This is the end of the account. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts greatly troubled me, and my countenance changed; but I kept the matter in my heart.”

Comments

From Bryce Self:

But you are correct that Daniel 7 is critical—because it was for Jesus Himself. This is where He draws from for His preferred self-designation as “Son of Man” (nobody else ever calls Him that). It was both at the core of both His internal identity and provided the motive and pattern for His outward actions. The future coming of the glorified Son of Man was a constant subject of Christ’s teachings and sayings from the start of His public ministry to His trials before Caiaphas and Pilate.
The subjection of the beasts to Him is a recapitulation and restoration of Adam’s dominion over creation (naming the beasts in Eden), and is where Paul draws from for his numerous expositions on Jesus as the Second Man or Last Adam. This is the fulfillment of the two earliest prophecies on record: the pro-evangelium of Genesis 3 where the Seed of Woman overcomes the ancient serpent and his viperous brood, as well as the dire warning of judgement on the ungodly by the Lord and His saints (“holy ones”) uttered by Enoch the seventh from Adam and reported by Jude the Lord’s brother. And of course, most of the book of Revelation is occupied with the details of the scenes sketched here in Daniel as a summary overview of the End of the Age.

This reflects the fractal, recursive nature of the Biblical revelation —“Line upon line, line upon line; Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, Here a little, there a little, With a stammering lip and and a strange tongue will My word to this people,” and “God spoke in many ways and various portions to the fathers by the prophets…”

Several views are given of the same revelation from different perspectives with varying degrees of detail, focus, and highlighting. This is why we have been given four Gospels rather than one. Also a good argument for the identification of the great earthquakes of Revelation narrated separately under the seals, the trumpets, and the bowls. This is simply the manner in which the eternal and infinite God reveals Himself, perhaps of necessity due to our own finite capacity as creatures compounded by our fragmented faculties as fallen humans (even when in process of restoration as believers).

At any time, I would always be leery of contradicting Ray, but he was also quite tentative and undogmatic in stating his proposed identifications for the beasts.
Casting forward as well as back, chapter 8 certainly shows Medio-Persian and Greece under the symbols of the Ram and Goat. Here is yet another iteration of the same facts— this time up close in a much more restricted view of just these two, in order to relate the immediately upcoming event in much greater detail than before of what awaited the People of God in relation to the world empire in its various expressions. Yet notice that here again, we are dealing with much more, and more enduring, than what the scholars are preoccupied with — Antiochus Epiphanes desecrating the Temple with his pig offering. That was a only a partial and prefiguring, proleptic, historical fulfillment of what will culminate in the deeds of the lawless one at the End of the Age—here again we find both sequence and continuity are married in the meaning of the text.

Perhaps somehow draw Acts 17 into the discussion, Paul’s Areopagus speech about the ordained times and boundaries of the nations being establish for the SOLE purpose that some might come to repentance. The fullness of the Gentiles coming in completes the designed purpose for this current age of grace—the nations will have now served their purpose, and are overthrown to be rebuilt properly under Christ and the resurrected saints during the Millennium.

The current regime in which:

"And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their pre-appointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him.”

Gives way to the Kingdom of God:

The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

And this is the point of Daniel’s visions, whatever interpretation may be made of the symbolic beasts. 11/25/19.

From Chris Nilsen:

I found Calvary Chapel Ontario, Oregon, to be helpful. I have some notes at home, but 4th beast will be like no other (ergo, hard to pin tail on this beast right now). 4th beast’s kingdom will be very, very nasty. I was reminded of Reichkommissars for occupied lands in WW2, all reported to Hitler, but had individual traits, all were nasty, they competed for attention, oppressed almost everyone, sent Jews to concentration camps, applied forced labor, stripped lands of raw material, food, anything useful for war effort. Thought of them as being like the 10 kings.

Remember that “sea” also refers to the gentile nations, they are restless and unpredictable for most part. But God is still sovereign.

I guess I forgot my theory that the nastier the kingdom, the shorter it remains on the world scene. Sooner or later the creeps that run the kingdom turn on each other. Stalin was a thug and a criminal, he was taken down (during Purim in 1953 – divine fallout from doctor’s plot !) by a stroke and then his not so nice “colleagues” turned on each other. Beria was murdered. The 4th beast’s kingdom will only last a few years.

Nine messages on Daniel by Ray Stedman in 1969.

Bible.org commentaries on Daniel 

Thomas Constable on Daniel

Notes by Lambert Dolphin 

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January 23, 2022

         

Created 11/23/19