Rebuild Babylon?

Pastor Andy Woods believes in a literal city being rebuilt. Will this happen? Or?

A Discussion. Your comments are welcome.

Andy Woods on Babylon:

http://www.spiritandtruth.org/id/video.htm?

http://www.spiritandtruth.org/teaching/topics_by_andy_woods_01/18_

Back_to_Babylon/.st/20100228_back_to_babylon.mp4--ARGS-FOLLOW--http://v

Chuck Missler was drawn to this subject in 2004.

"The most important city in Iraq is not Baghdad, and you probably have never heard it mentioned on the 10 o'clock news. It is mentioned over 300 times in the Bible (and it is even found three times in the family tree of our Lord Jesus Christ). This is, of course, the fabled Babylon.

It was founded by the first world dictator, Nimrod, and it may well be destined to be the capital of the final world dictator, commonly called the Antichrist! And this all may be emerging on our near horizon. 

Misinformation

Don't be misled by confusing the Fall of Babylon in history with the Destruction of Babylon, as prophesied in the Bible.

Many Bible handbooks, dictionaries, and commentaries give you the impression that Babylon was "destroyed" in 539 B.C. But it is important to realize that when Cyrus the Great captured Babylon he was able to take it over without a battle . In fact, this feat is celebrated in the famed Cylinder of Cyrus that is featured in the British Museum in London. 

Babylon served as a secondary capital of the Persian Empire for two centuries until Alexander the Great conquered the Persians in 325 B.C. He made it his capital; in fact, he died there. 

Four of his generals then divided up the empire, and subsequently Babylon gradually atrophied over the centuries. Yet, when Robert Koldewey, the German archaeologist, excavated it at the end of the 19th century, he was able to hire local residents to assist him. 

The Destiny of Babylon

The prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah each spend two chapters detailing the catastrophic destruction that awaits this fabled city. The result of this final devastation will leave it uninhabitable; even the building materials will never be reused. This clearly has never happened in its history-its rebuilding was begun by Saddam Hussein, and it apparently is yet destined to reemerge on the world scene to receive the destruction which is so detailed by Isaiah and Jeremiah. 

What further complicates this perspective are the details that are added in the Book of Revelation. These passages alone have prompted numerous books, and many fanciful conjectures, regarding the potential allegorical and metaphorical applications from the Patmos vision John recorded. It is illuminating to read-at one sitting-the six principal chapters dealing this topic: Isaiah 13 and 14, Jeremiah 50 and 51 and Revelation 17 and 18. (Some of the specific issues that emerge are summarized in this chart. 

Clearly Babylon, as a literal city on banks of the Euphrates, has a climactic destiny yet ahead of it. The destruction described in both the Old and New Testaments has never happened , and if we take the Bible seriously then Babylon is destined to rise again to power to receive the judgment that Isaiah, Jeremiah, and the Apostle John have described. 

We also need to recognize that during the successive empires, the "mystery religions" that began in Babylon were subsequently transported to the various world capitals: to Pergamos under the Persians1 and subsequently to Rome, where they became the foundation of all that was (and still is) pagan in that city. 

And, of course, when Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire under the second successor after Constantine, Theodosius II (A.D. 378-398), many of these idolatrous trappings were repackaged with "Christian" labels. 

Many of these traditions are still very visible in the practices of the Roman Catholic Church, but are also visible, in more subtle forms, in many other denominations as well. Perhaps the most significant study of these practices and their history is Dave Hunt's milestone work, The Woman That Rides the Beast 2, which is a modern response to Alexander Hislop's classic, The Two Babylons , published in 1916.

Are the prophetic references to "Babylon" to be taken literally-an actual city on the banks of the Euphrates-or metaphorically, to include the Vatican and the final apostate ("ecumenical") world church? There are many good scholars on both sides of this debate. It may well be that both views are true...."

Andy became a Christian at the age of 16. He graduated with High Honors earning two Baccalaureate Degrees in Business Administration and Political Science (University of Redlands, CA.), and obtained a Juris Doctorate (Whittier Law School, CA), practiced law, taught Business and Law and related courses (Citrus Community College, CA) and served as Interim Pastor of Rivera First Baptist Church in Pico Rivera, CA (1996-1998).

In 1998, he began taking courses at Chafer and Talbot Theological Seminaries. He earned a Master of Theology degree, with High Honors (2002), and a Doctor of Philosophy in Bible Exposition (2009) at Dallas Theological Seminary. In 2005 and 2009, he received the Donald K. Campbell Award for Excellence in Bible Exposition, at Dallas Theological Seminary.

In addition, he has authored and contributed to many Christian books and theological journals and speaks on a variety of topics at Christian conferences and churches. Andy has been married to his wife Anne since 1998 and they have one daughter, Sarah. 

Discussion

Lambert Dolphin: I tend to think Mystery Babylon is figurative and refers to all false religion and the collapse of the world economic system. I don’t think the literal city will be rebuilt but...

On Nov 15, 2020, at 23:00, Bryce Self commented:

Well, a few points spring to mind even before searching for “proof texts” or even proof passages…

It seems rather late in the day for the founding of new city that would have the global stature and significance that Babylon must have if literal.

There is a solid case to be made that the character of Babylon has now worked its leaven of sin throughout all the nations, and that the global insurrection and apostacy under the beast and false prophet will simply tie all the threads together into one big ball of rebellion.

If there is to be a single city as the local focus of rule for the man of lawlessness, there are two prime candidates that are both termed “Babylon” in the Scriptures—Jerusalem and, especially, Rome, the city on the Tiber and not one of its offspring such as Moscow or Washington.

And again, there need be no intrinsic contradiction between a systemic Babylon and a civic one. As so often, perhaps it is a false dichotomy to confine ourselves to one manifestation of Babylon in exclusion of the other.

Also from Bryce Self :

A few points spring to mind even before searching for “proof texts” or even proof passages…

It seems rather late in the day for the founding of new city that would have the global stature and significance that Babylon must have if literal.

There is a solid case to be made that the character of Babylon has now worked its leaven of sin throughout all the nations, and that the global insurrection and apostasy under the beast and false prophet will simply tie all the threads together into one big ball of rebellion.

If there is to be a single city as the local focus of rule for the man of lawlessness, there are two prime candidates that are both termed “Babylon” in the Scriptures—-Jerusalem and, especially, Rome, the city on the Tiber and not one of its offspring such as Moscow or Washington.

And again, there need be no intrinsic contradiction between a systemic Babylon and a civic one. As so often, perhaps it is a false dichotomy to confine ourselves to one manifestation of Babylon in exclusion of the other.

Occurrences of the name “Babylon”… 244 instances total:

After Genesis, the next is II Kings (Assyria’s settlement of foreigners in Samaria) a HUGE time gap.

149 in Jeremiah (almost 2/3 of total)

75% (184) in the prophets altogether — primarily a PROPHETIC entity.
The chart below begins at 12:00 position and runs clockwise:

From James Fielder:

Lambert 5/24/2021: Changed my mind! Revelation Chapter 17 is about the end of religions in the world as the man of sin takes over the world and declares that he alone is god, and the sole object of worship open to mankind. Revelation 18 describes God's judgments on world economy, banking, and trade. The Antichrist as sole world leader will evidently be the active agent in bringing about these two terrible judgments. These two pivotal chapters are sandwiched between the last cascading judgments of Revelation, Chapter 16, and the invasion of Jesus with the armies of heaven, chapter 19. Key Two Messages by John MacArthur: The Abomination of Desolation and Babylon is Fallen.

That is, Chapter 17 is about the judgment of all false religion, and Chapter 18 is about a city where world commerce and trade are located. That city could well be in Iraq!

Lambert 11/20/2020: The fatal flaw is that I can’t imagine Mystery Babylon being a literal city as Bryce echoes.

I don't think we will be on the earth after rapture...we will be in the Father's house, as he said.

"Then if any one says to you, 'Lo, here is the Christ!' or 'There he is,' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. Lo, I have told you beforehand. So, if they say to you,'Lo, he is in the wilderness,' do not go out; if they say, 'Lo, he is in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of man. Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together."

This to me is a strict warning, to the Jews, not to go anywhere anyone tells them Christ is on earth, due the beast hunting them.  For as the lightning from the east as far as the west, the entire sky...the Lord at His appearing in Glory. The verse about where the body is the vultures are...is the same as the supper of God.  I take it as a warning, not an indicator that Christ will be appearing on and off during the Trib.

To Ray, a key word is parousia in Matthew 24 verse 27 and refers to the rapture. Ray thought the church would be on earth but invisible during the seven year tribulation period between the parousia and the apokalupsis. I believe we will be sheltered in an orbiting satellite called “New Jerusalem” where we can “watch from the Mezzanine.” 

Matthew 24:26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming (erchomai) on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (See The Olivet Discourse by Ray Stedman)

I have arbitrarily added a 12-year window between the rapture and the start of the 70th week of Daniel.  See The Management of the Universe.

Time compared to Eternity  is a bit complicated! The rapture will happen in time but God has not told us the date. We are to be ready every day.  The calendar date is a fixed date according to earth clocks and calendars. But once we know Jesus we are no longer “earth dwellers” but “heaven dwellers.”

Ray Stedman says:

“The man of sin ridicules and slanders those who do believe in God and in heaven (the unseen spiritual realm that exists), and whose thinking is centered upon and guided by the teaching of the Word of God...

Those who thus "tabernacle in heaven" are not people who have died and gone to heaven. They are saints who live on the earth but whose lives are governed by heavenly realities. It is exactly what the apostle says about the church today. "Our citizenship," he says in Philippians, "is in heaven," (Philippians 3:20 NIV). We are strangers and sojourners on earth, but our true citizenship is in heaven... 

“The revived Roman leader is given great power. He is allowed to do fearful things, and thousands will die at his hand because of their faith. This agrees exactly with what we saw in Chapter 7, where the great multitude which no man could number come out of the tribulation from all nations and languages and tribes and people -- a group that "washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and made them white" Revelation 7:14) and became martyrs for the cause of Jesus Christ. This is the group that is mentioned here. This leader's influence extends throughout the whole earth. It does not mean he actually rules over the whole earth but rather that his influence extends throughout it. It is very much like the Super Powers of our day. The influence of the United States and of Russia affects every nation on earth today because of the power and might these two nations represent. It will also be the case then...

“There will be one class of people who will follow this leader blindly. They are called "those who dwell on the earth." We have seen this term before. It is a moral class, those who live for this world, who think only of the earth and its advantages, who are materialists and humanists, and who have no use for the things of God or the life beyond.  ...There is one group that resists this leader, and that is those "who tabernacle in heaven," whose names are written, we are told here, "in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world." That is an amazing statement.  ...We will say more about the book of life later on where it is mentioned again. I would like now to focus on the phrase, "the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world."  That confirms again how time is not a factor in eternity. The death of the Lamb actually took place in time, on earth, at a specific date on the calendar, but here it is reckoned as an eternal event which has meaning for peoples from the very beginning of time, the creation of the world itself. The Lamb was slain, and the cross has impact upon all creation. Thus the Old Testament saints could be born again by faith because they were saved by the cross even though it had not yet occurred in history. John now picks up on the phrase that Jesus used frequently and gives a word of encouragement to thereafter." When Men Become Beasts.

My present mortal body is trapped in earth time but my soul and spirit are dwelling in heaven now, today. Jesus is letting us sit in on his daily privy council meetings. I don’t need to preoccupied with the “dark side,” namely, events unfolding down on the planet. I’ll get daily briefings from Jesus to us who are already living up in the mezzanine.

As the Day draws near the Bride is supposed to be getting ready for her wedding! Look at how ominous this is!

“For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. (For they could not endure what was commanded: “And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned or shot with an arrow.” And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.”)

But you have come (already) to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. For our God is a consuming fire.” (Hebrews 12:15-29)

Does this all fit? New body will permit us to see all this. All followers of Jesus back in history to and including Jesus and all the Apostles and every believer since will arrive in heaven at the time. Once we are all raptured we will look down on all of human history from heaven’s vantage point as John did back in AD 95.

Such a great city has to be connected to all banks, all businesses, all governments with a huge staff if they were to pull all the important puppet strings on the planet. Missler imagined that but surely that necessary infrastructure will be angelic? The unseen network is already installed and running. 

Such a great city has to be connected to all banks, all businesses, all governments with a huge staff if they were to pull all the important puppet strings on the planet. Missler imagined that but surely that necessary infrastructure will be angelic? The unseen network is already installed and running. 

Bryce on 1/16/2020

Zechariah 5:5-11 (NKJV) "Then the angel who talked with me came out and said to me, “Lift your eyes now, and see what this is that goes forth.” So I asked, “What is it?” And he said, “It is a basket that is going forth.” He also said, “This is their resemblance throughout the earth: Here is a lead disc lifted up, and this is a woman sitting inside the basket”; then he said, “This is Wickedness!” And he thrust her down into the basket, and threw the lead cover over its mouth. Then I raised my eyes and looked, and there were two women, coming with the wind in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between earth and heaven. So I said to the angel who talked with me, “Where are they carrying the basket?” And he said to me, “To build a house for it in the land of Shinar; when it is ready, the basket will be set there on its base.”

Initial indication of both a global systemic corruption and evil, as well as possible literal reestablishment as a city in an appointed time and place.
This is the best basis for asserting a rebuilding of the ancient city.

More study required for full context before settling on one interpretation (or neither, or both).

On November 21, 2020, James Fielder writes:

For sure, Babylon represents all the fake religious systems of the world. I am going with Chuck and Andy...it is a city in Revelation also....on the Shinar plain.  It will come back in the last days. I think as Rome falls, it comes back it's base..the woman in the basket with the stork wing angels to the "base"...gathers all the fakes, Muslims, Catholics, etc.  As Andy would say...the daughters of the mother harlot come "home".

Sort of like the mustard tree, with all the birds in the branches.

The Beast burns it and eats it, Rev. Satan goes in the temple in Jerusalem mid trib, he can't stand anyone worshiping any other fake religion....Beast demands worship of only Satan.  Burns it down in the end.

From Lambert 11/21/2020:

My original presupposition was that a seven-year tribulation period was not suffice time to build a huge, modern, high tech literal city called Babylon. Then it dawned on me that there could be a considerable interval of time between the Rapture and the Seventieth Week of Daniel. I arbitrarily assumed 12 years. See The Management of the Universe.

But building a literal city with a huge staff and thousands of Internet connections to banks, government authorities, movers and shakers and leaders in science and politics still seems to me too daunting and too unsecure. An invisible city connected by angels still makes more sense to me.

Other References

The Gog/Magog Invasion|
The Assyrian
Nations on The World Stage
Tyre and Sidon
Nimrod, Mars and The Marduk Connection
The Tower of Babel Affair
False Religion
Semiramis, Queen of Babylon
The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop
The Tower of Babel
Babylon: Its Coming Destruction!
Towards One World Religion
Times are 'aChanging
The Iraq War and Such...
The Seventy Prophetic Weeks of Daniel, by N. W. Hutchings
False Religion
The Management of the Universe
The Times of the Gentiles